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Started by: White Crow Sent: 27/02/2001 23:05 7 Replies
Okay, your first thought may be that Ive posted to the wrong site, but consider this...

The Nazi and the Japanese were marked out in the early days of the war by their cruelty .. its why we consider someone like Hitler so evil.

It was this cruelty which made us so hate them, for instance,
they bombed civilians in their blitzkreig
masacred Jews
treated prisoners of wars atrociously
started war with sneak attack
sneak submarine attacks

We beat the Germans and the Japanese but to do so,
we bombed their women and children far worse than they ours, delibrately creating the Dresden firestorm
dropped two atomic bombs on them
We beat them by taking on their values and making them our own, and doing a better job than they could!

Once beaten, we kept their values as our values - bombing civilians with nuclear weapons was here to stay!

My question then is can we fight evil with out mirroring that evil in ourselves?

Love and blessings,

White Crow

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From: The Flame Haired Lovely Sent: 27/02/2001 23:17 1 of 7
I read an interesting article in Kindred Spirit the other month about when we meet anyone we perceive in them the things we see in ourselves. So when we dislike someone, we do so because we see in them the things we don't like about ourselves. This then went on to say how we can use this to help us in our relationships. e.g. If we dislike something in our partner (their snidey remarks) then we need to look at ourselves. So is it because we have used snidey remarks in the past, and now regret this, so hate to see others do so. We then need to solve that problem within ourselves, once that is done you wil see a change around you...for the better!

So I would say that to defeat evil, instead of attacking the one who is causing it...attack its counterpart within yourself...then you don't defeat it by emulating it onto a 3rd person. But by accepting it, and changing you. Thereby avoiding becoming that evil.

I know I don't make much sense here, but have lost the article, and am trying to do this from memory. Hope I make some sense!

I know what I mean anyway!

Scott

From: Katrina Sent: 28/02/2001 19:05 2 of 7
In the Millennium Dome, in the religion zone, I noted down some of the gems of wisdom (actually for one piece of my son's GCSE art coursework on conflict). This one springs to mind, White Crow:

Peace at any price is no peace at all.

In other words, can the ends ever justify the means? I do agree with your sentiments, but having said that, how else was Hitler to be stopped? My kids at school (10 -11 year olds) are studying World War 11, and we do debate issues like these. Children of that age see everything in black and white (no grey magic for them!!). I find it very difficult to know where I stand. And I wonder if I had been alive then, would my opinions have been different? It's easy to take the moral high ground in safe retrospect. I just don't know the answer, other than doing nothing would have been the worst thing of all, and we certainly wouldn't have the freedom of speech today to discuss issues such as this.
Katrina

From: Numenius Sent: 28/02/2001 19:13 3 of 7
Its an interesting one!
I think your probably right, in a peaceful and settled society, or where we are talking about ethics, thoughts and so on then that is very true. But in the material world, I really do not think that Hitler would have surrendered or turned all cuddly if the rest of us (by "us" I mean the world) recognised our own predjudices and dealt with them and became better people. I think he would have laughed and clapped his hands with glee! (For example, he must have loved Allied conscientious objectors, even though for many it was a genuine thing, and many went on to do tremendously brave first aid and bomb disposal work)
As for the Japanese, I know that there is often the point raised about wether the second bomb was required (it was actualy a bit different from the first, so obviously theres suggestion that it was in fact a way of testing), but of course no way, no how were the Japanese going to surrender. A pen pal of mine is Japanese, and he says that there is almost no pre 1940s buildings in his town as they were all destroyed due to conventional allied bombs. So if normal bombing on that scale did not suffice, and thousands of allied troops were still being killed in the inch by inch defeat of the Imperial Army, then its difficult to see what else was to be done. If my son, father, partner or husband had been fighting the Japanese, I guess that I'd be only too happy that it brought an end to the war with no more Alllied losses. Was the Japanese refusal to surrender when it had become pointless to continue not equally as evil? ... and if it was, would it not be just as evil NOT to act and end the war? (Glad it wasn't my decision to make!)
As morally repugnant as it is, I think in the material realm you have to fight fire with fire, and if it lessens you, then at least you leave a world where your kids (us) have a chance to build.... and I guess thats us now.

From: The Flame Haired Lovely Sent: 28/02/2001 21:04 4 of 7
Yes Alan I agree with you that by the time 1939 came around war was the only way to stop Hitler. But he was doing/campaigning for over a decade before that. He fed on peoples greed, love to blame someone else for their problems, and general inhumanity to get himself in a position to be able to do that. Hitler acheived what he did because his people allowed him to. If his people had looked at their hatred for the Jews etc. (this was not a new feeling it had been around for hundreds of years) and looked in on themselves to solve their problems, instead of blaming the Jews, then Hitler would never have got to power, and caused the horrors that he did. If humanity had followed this principle it would have been stopped before it started.

Secondly winning isn't always a victory! If we sell our souls to win, then it is no victory at all. If winning costs us all that we are, it is no victory. We loose. An illusion of peace, with no humanity, is not peace. Do our children have a safer world to live in...I don't believe so. Our ozone layer is heavily damaged, we have wrecked our enviroment, water tables are all over the place, we have raped, ravished, and polluted our home. Our only home. All for the sake of 'scientific advancement'. Have we given them a safer world to live in, or a slow death? Humanity in general has come to a point ( I believe) where the horrors of today are common place and no longer shock us.

Is this a world future I would be happy bringing children into? The answer is no.

From: The Flame Haired Lovely Sent: 28/02/2001 21:18 5 of 7
P.s. The British Empire was one of the most powerful this world has ever seen. We was defeated by one mans teaching of pacifism - Ghandi's! He refused to use violance against us...and won!

From: White Crow Sent: 28/02/2001 21:38 6 of 7
Just for the record, I am a fairish student of history. I'm not putting forward the naive belief we shouldnt have opposed Hitler - and things would have been worse had he won!

But its interesting to note how even though he was defeated he has still has left an indelible mark on the world. I'm going to probably post a follow up to this at the weekend, where you'll see more where I'm going!

Thank you all for your comments ... its been really interesting and intelligent discussion!

Love and blessings,

White Crow

From: maisie Sent: 28/02/2001 22:46 7 of 7
And all that just because people didn't like his paintings! (watch out for art students!!)

Love and Light

Maisie