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Started by: scott Sent: 17/02/2001 09:38 31 Replies
There seemed to be a pint made in another message board as to what Grey Magick is. So i thought I'd start a discussion on it. Here are the definitions that I work by.

White magick: the art and science of causing change to occur in conformity to will, using means not currently understood by traditional western science, for the purpose of obtaining Knowledge and Conversation of your Holy Guardian Angel.

Black Magick: The art and science of causing change to occur in conformity to will, using means not curremtly understood by traditional Western science, for the purpose of causing either physical or non-physical harm to yourself or others, and is either done consciously or unconsciously.

Grey magick: The art and science...etc...for the purpose of causing either physical or non-physical good to yourself or others, and is either done consciously or unconsciously.

(Taken from David kraigs "Modern Magick".)

As I say these are just the definitions that I work by, they work for me! I believe that we can do black magick while attempting to do grey. e.g. I cast a spell for money (grey magick) , I don't take the proper precautions and my father dies leaving me a fortune (it has turned into black).

I believe that in reality we all just practise magick, and it's the end results that determine what sort it is. Hence the importance of performing a divination to see the end results, before performing a spell, to avoid performing black magick unconsciously; and avoiding the karmic consequences of this!

I dunno, what do you guys think?

Scott

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From: maldanwillow Sent: 17/02/2001 10:49 1 of 31
It never ceases to amaze me that ppl profess to being a "white" witch etc. What exactly is a white witch? How does one create a separate entity and give it a colour? Is not life a balance - a coexistence of good/bad; light/dark; love/hate. The witch that dwells within is not a separate identity or an extension of ourselves - just a part of who we are! To call oneself a "white" witch or one of any other colour for that matter is rather misleading and we need to be careful that we don't mislead ourselves in any way. Life itself is both beautiful and brutally savage at the same time - it's all part of the equilibrium and it is that which nurtures us and not the other way round. When the balance is ripped assunder by man's greed, lust and ego, there is a price to pay and paid it will be. One way to restore the balance is for us as individuals to begin to ask pertinent questions and go in search of the knowlege of the Source (Goddess) without limiting ourselves to what we see as "acceptable". To do this, we must move forward with an open heart and mind free from self-imposed restrictions. The gradual attainment of knowledge means that future generations will hopefully begin to understand exactly where they fit into the grand scheme of things and ultimately we will give back that which we have taken freely without thought or consideration. White, black, grey........ does it really matter? Know what you do and why you do it and who it serves - you or the Source? For those of you who are SERIOUS in your quest for enlightenment, may your road be Blessed! Love, Marilyn xx

From: scott Sent: 17/02/2001 10:55 2 of 31
Thanx Mw
That was I was trying to point to in my last paragraph about magick being just magick, you put it alot better than I could've done thank you

Scottxxx

From: maldanwillow Sent: 17/02/2001 12:41 3 of 31
You are more than welcome Scott! It would be cool if some other peeps would enter this discussion so I'll be checking in every now and again to see what's happening. Catch you later! Love MW x

From: Katrina Sent: 17/02/2001 14:39 4 of 31
Was your discussion title a Freudian slip, Scott?
Katrina xx

From: Akasha Sent: 17/02/2001 15:30 5 of 31
grey magic is the term usually used for borderline stuff, eg casting a spell for someone else, with or without permission, even healing someone can be defned as grey magic as some people believe you shoulnt use magic for other people
however magic is just a use of energy so it is futile to try and pidgeonhole it.
as we said it is the intention of the person cating the spell that is important, the human mnd is so complex that intention cannot be pigeon holed either.
no person never feels negative emotions, anger fear, hate, we wouldnt be human if we didnt, hence there is no such thing as a white witch.
as i said on the other message, the definition of black as evil is a christian one, so personally i left that concept behind when i became a pagan, in fact before that, when i started studying tae kwon do. in both pagan and eastern philosophy, white is all colours put together and black is a lack of colour (hence the black belt, it showss that you have gone beyond the point where coloured belts matter). in magic we can use white as a universal colour to represent any colour and any sort of magic, whether harmful or not
if you want to gain money you use green to represent the need, if you want to gain health you use yellow, hence if you want to gain anything in general white may be used, so spells to gain are white magic. conversely if something needs to be lost you want rid of its representativ colour, to have no colour, or black, hence banishing and destructive magic is black.
destructive does not mean bad, you could be removing negative stuff or a bad habit, so this is good and healthy
this is the dravidic idea that was twisted later when ortodox religeons were trying to give the old religeon a bad name.
though really none of this shit matters as long as you dont set out to hurt anyone else it doesnt matter what you call it, and if you do intend hurt others then its bound to come back to you so thats ok too.
brightest blessingx
kash

From: White Crow Sent: 17/02/2001 16:42 6 of 31
What I'm saying here comes from the heart rather than the mind...

I dont really think magical acts have any colour ... I see magic as a tool. In the same way a gun is also a tool which can be used to liberate or to murder. Only in accidents do guns kill, otherwise it is human will in using the gun which kills.

Thus any magic set in motion is tainted by the person who performs it. If that person is good, then surely the magic that comes from them is good too?

I would like to consider myself as a white witch though. I know I have my darker side, which I am forever trying to embrace but keep in balance, but generally I try to be a good person and oppose evil. I know not all of you think that there is such things as good and evil, but I do.

This is not me trying to be self-righteous ... okay?

Cheers,

White Crow

From: Numenius Sent: 18/02/2001 11:12 7 of 31
I think we're getting caught up in semantics here. Everyone will know inside if what they are doing is good, bad or indifferent. The black & white are simply convenient ways to describe this. As for grey magic, (I too thought "gey magic" might mean something entirely different. oooer missus!) lots of things in life are not black & white, thats true, but my own feeling is that the writers who say that theres no "grey magic" (not gay magic you notice!) are probably right. Calling it grey is just presenting it to yourself as acceptable. There are many parralells in history and everyday life... "we were only following orders" - meaning "as I was simply doing what I was told, the responsibility for the act is not mine" how many folks would nowadays agree with that particular philosophy (if you don't know where that came from, ask a Jewish friend)?, "if I only take a little bit, it won't do any harm" - all of these are ways we kid ourselves something is OK. So sorry, I don't think there is grey - its black by another name.
Whilst we are on, I'm sure someone will point out that "black" being the colour of "bad" may be racist. I believe though, that the description predates our discovery of black people. (Mind you, I'm left handed, and of course we all know what the left hand path means. "Sinister" is latin for left handed..... oooer.) The point is, they are just words that we conveniently use.

From: Dionne Sent: 18/02/2001 18:13 8 of 31
Righty...I'm half way through revising here....so forgive me if in this reply, the odd "biodiversity action planning" pops up!!

ok...where was I...am I?...good question...

Fortunately...I think I know who I am (maybe not where I am...but at least that's something!)..

I'm a Witch...not white...or grey...or black (or purple..although I do have a passion for purple!)

Like Kash said....no person on this earth NEVER has negative emotions....& I think possibly no one could actually say they've never done anything negative...
There has to be a balance of good & bad....positive & negative....& somewhere along the line, hopefully, we achieve this balance..

I'm a Witch....I am who I am...& I do what I do....I would never intentionally harm anyone, anything or myself....but I don't consider myself a white witch....or any other coloured witch (although...as I said...purple's tempting!!)...
I am just a witch, I follow my beliefs as I see fit...pagan beliefs in some form....& I practise witchcraft.....
Tis me....& I like it!

I have no idea if any of that actually makes sense....possibly not...but I know what I mean...

love & light...

Dionne

From: White Crow Sent: 18/02/2001 20:33 9 of 31
Dionne,

Surely we aspire to be good and positive? This 'balance between good and evil' I sometimes see this in some Wiccans (or any religion) as 'Im all right Jack' pigheadedness and a refusal to learn or grow.

From: Dionne Sent: 18/02/2001 20:45 10 of 31
Don't get me wrong...I'm not saying I'm staying as I am...I refuse to listen to opinions...& I refuse to learn more....
I'm always looking to learn more...looking at & respecting what others believe & how to make myself a better person..

& yes, we do all strive to be better people...but no one can say they never experience negative emotions (if someone does something that upsets you) ...these emotions are in essence energy...negative energy.
Notice I didn't actually mention "good & evil"...good & bad...positive & negative....just because it's negative...it doesn't have to be "evil".

If anyone NEVER experiences negative emotions....correct me please. I know I do...you just have to learn to control it..this is where the balance comes in....don't let negativity take over yoyr life...but accept that it's part of it.

This is just my opinion anyway...& everyone has their own..

blessings...

Dionne

From: Katrina Sent: 18/02/2001 20:48 11 of 31
I absolutely love purple too, Dionne! Let's start a Purple Magic group - with a bit of silver thrown in too!
Katrina

From: Akasha Sent: 18/02/2001 22:40 12 of 31
i love purple its ace, its also a very witchy colour cos it represents intuition and isthe colour for divination
i used to have purple hair, in fact im gonna dye it again

yours purplely
kash

From: maldanwillow Sent: 18/02/2001 22:57 13 of 31
You know, I was around in the late 60's etc. and I was a member of the "hippy" culture.....really into all the peace and love stuff, you may say that it was all good positive energy. And to some degree it was! However, some of the consequences of striving to give off so much good stuff were dire indeed....dramatic population increase; untold numbers of folk o.d.ing on narcotics and dying; increased incidences of STD's and now of course, the HCV virus which is going to claim even more lives. This tells me that indulgence at either end of the scale can be most damaging and we therefore must find the balance in which harmony can prevail and not upset the natural balance of the Source, from which we all came and to which we must return! Love, Willow xx

From: White Crow Sent: 18/02/2001 23:42 14 of 31
I think there is a difference between who we are and who we aspire to be.

I know I'm both good and bad, but I try and aspire to be good. One of the reasons I love magic is the way it deals with problems. You have a problem, you sit down and work out a positive spell and set down positive actions which will harm none but aid you ... this to me (done in accordance with harm none rule) can only be a good thing.

I think there should be no discrimination shown to people who want to call themselves White Witches ... no one picks on people who call themselves Wiccans but not Witches, or Pagans not Wiccans! At the end of the day its a name which means something to those who use it, and should be honoured as such.

I like to think myself a White Witch as the term has great power in my mind - my mother often told us stories of White Witches who watched over myself and family as children, as well as the story of Molly Lee, who my mother always told us was a White Witch.

Love and blessings,

White Crow

P.S. The White in White Crow is nothing to do with White Witches ... I didnt even choose it as a magical name. The name comes from slang for a flying boat used to hunt German subs in WWII, which were painted white to be less visible in clouds ... the name just seemed to resonate off the page.

From: Ookster Sent: 19/02/2001 00:55 15 of 31
Hmm, ok, here goes. White/black/grey/purple/orange with pink spots-it doesn't really have any relevance to my way of thinking. I believe in balance, in recognising that I am capable of both good and bad, yet striving to ensure that I stay on the right path. But, by being on that path, I may sometimes stray, or get a little too close to the dividing line..however, if my 'base' intentions are correct, then I will be following the path as well as I can and understand.
Yes, I accept I can be a bitch, and I reserve it as my right to be a bitch at times.
It's Wiccan Rede time...but, at the bottom of it all, if in my heart I have the best of intentions, then surely that's good?
(the above paragraph makes no sense...erm, it's late, i'm tired..I have tummy ache! I hope you get the gist of what I mean..)
Balance is the key.
That's it in a sentence.
I think!

From: GothsChilde Sent: 19/02/2001 14:45 16 of 31
Hmm...firstly I like the title 'gey magick' hheheheh.

Secondly, I think the colour classification of magick is an irresponsible representation of the craft (not that I'm saying YOU are irresponsible!) It leads to many things, not least to the idea of the dualism of 'good' and 'bad', which is a contradiction in terms of what the fundamental beliefs of paganism are. I have spoken to many different people, some of whom profess to have delved into 'black magick', can we not infer that when someone says they practice 'black' magick' that they are purely evil as they only concentrate on one aspect of natures power, if magick comes from the heart then their hearts must be 'black'??? We know this cannot be true due to the co-existence of both aspects in all beings. Hrm...well, I think I babbled a bit...but I think the terms are just misleading, and but a hindrance to the reputation and understanding of pagans....

Did that make sense to anyone but me....????!

Dee!

From: White Crow Sent: 19/02/2001 19:04 17 of 31
GothsChild

Oooh ... so true paganism has no colour association, and those who use colour classification are giving an 'irresponcible representation' huh? Well why dont you righteous pagans come on over and stone us who believe anything a little differently huh?

I'm sure you've never used different coloured candles, a coloured robe etc ...

And no good or bad huh? I guess Hitler wasnt bad then, he was just misunderstood. This 'no good' and 'no bad' is social worker speak. There is real evil and good in the world, we're all somewhere in between, and yes there is evil which maskequeades as good ...

Lets face it, if you dont believe in either good or evil and you should just be balanced, well theres no pressure really is there? You dont have to do anything ever again because by doing nothing your balanced ... thats like living in denial. It also means if people want to persecute Witches, thats okay as long as they're happy with themselves as they do it, thats all that counts.

Its interesting to note that under 'random books' discussion that a lot of people recommend those 'classic story of epic good vs evil' tales ... odd for a community which doesn't believe in either concept.

White Crow

From: Dionne Sent: 19/02/2001 19:19 18 of 31
We have to find a balance to live our lives...
no one is purely "good"..
no one is purely "bad" (although some more than others!!)
We're all a bit of a mix of both really...

But has anyone actually said they don't believe "good" & "evil" exists?

From: White Crow Sent: 20/02/2001 08:19 19 of 31
Dionne,

I have not said that we are all good or all evil ... I agree that we are somewhere in between. Neither am I saying theres an all good God and an evil Devil who makes us do bad things!

But to quote GothsChild ... "the idea of the dualism of 'good' and 'bad', which is a contradiction in terms of what the fundamental beliefs of paganism are" ... if thats not saying that 'hey pagans shouldnt believe there is good and evil' I dont know what is!

Okay, maybe your original band pagan might not have believed in good and evil. But the idea is a concept which very much abounds in our culture ... you cannot uninvent an idea like that. And I would challenge any pagan who objects to the words good and bad to try going a week without using them!

One of the core ideals of Wicca is 'harm none' which I think is a wonderful statement, which sums up most of the 10 commandments in 2 words! But to me 'harm' is a bad thing, and thus by 'harming none' we are attempting to be essentially good people!

The concept of good and evil is a yardstick that all truely consious people use to judge their actions and make decisions ... I can either mug that old lady or help her accross the street ... is one action good and the other evil ... or are both actions equal?

White Crow

From: seabhac Sent: 20/02/2001 09:15 20 of 31
Crow, all,
This seems to be disintegrating into a discussion about ethics. The "being without doing" - being balanced - try the Tao if you want an argument on just being. For ethics - try JS Mill, Nietzsche, Hegel, Wittgenstein....
not very coherent this but it came to me disjointed so I left it that way.
Seabhac

From: GothsChilde Sent: 20/02/2001 14:58 21 of 31
I was not trying to say that the cocepts of good and evil do not exist, merely that these attributes cannot exist in a pure form in any being. Hitler must not have been truly evil as no being can be so, to be fair he did have an ideal of a better world, obviously distorted and acheived in a very wrong way, but the concept was still there....and I'm not in the mood to psychoanalyse Hitler or his motives anyway.
I was purely saying that I think the classification of magick into colour types is a hindrance, exactly as Dionne says, with different words, controversial as this may seem. I intend no offence to anyone.
GothsChilde

From: GothsChilde Sent: 20/02/2001 15:01 22 of 31
Do you not also think that 'good and bad', 'black and white' are very simplistic terms to deal with something so intricate and magnificent?

I mean no offense to any who find these tems helpful to them, but I, like all others, am entitled to share my views.

From: White Crow Sent: 20/02/2001 18:18 23 of 31
With all the good versus bad pushed over to one side now ... lets talks about colour witches ...

Like I say, I was brought up being told about White Witches so to me the idea is comfortable and nice!

This is a union of two words ... Witch and the colour White. The colour white is used as a metaphor ... it carries a whole weight of imagery with it and so the combination of the two words creates a powerful image in our minds.

As pagans we use metaphors all the time ... to remove them would rob Wicca of everything, leaving a bleached mass behind.

We use air as a metaphor for the mind, earth the body, etc etc.

We use scents and herbs in magic which are a kind of sensory metaphor which stirs our mind in a certain direction.

We imagine creativity as the Goddess woman ... although she has no physical genitalia, but a lot of her aspects are metaphorically linked to women.

I do not like the idea of having a Pagan police which says certain images only are allowed as we are supposed to be free minded, not you are a bad pagan unless you see the Goddess as a white woman with blonde hair and the god as a black african guy!

Love and blessings,

White Crow

P.S. I am not getting at you Gothschild ... I just wanna say there are some deep issues here about freedom of mind and spirit with still being called a pagan here.

From: Numenius Sent: 20/02/2001 20:43 24 of 31
It seems that some (though by no means all, if you read the postings) folk have simply confirmed my point made earlier - you can kid yourself all you like that nothing is truly bad etc (and the world is made up only of good and "ever so slightly misguided" people - presumably like Hitler, rapists, snuff movie makers etc - sorry, but their victims probably don't share the luxury of seeing the good side of them that you apparently do) and by talking in circles and creating metaphors like social workers in a youth court, we can make evil into good - its a luxury that occurs in settled peaceful, soft societies - and as any policeman, soldier (who's actually been at the sharp end) or other "real life" practicioner will tell you, its cosy comforting b******s, so that you can live with the fact that theres real life monsters out there, and that your not as "good" yourself as you'd like kid yourself you are. The postings about self improvment are nearer the mark, but of course the original point of this posting was not really what we've got onto I think.
Sorry, if this seems like an outburst, and upsets anyone, but my goodness, some folks can decieve themselves.

From: Galen the Wanderer Sent: 20/02/2001 20:53 25 of 31
Ahr.. another realist is around, yer I agree with you mate, but it's not just limited to this group or to any group of people it seams to be most of the people in this country. I don't know why it is but you just get lots of people who seam to go though life thinking that every body is a realy nice person who just hasn't been given the opertunity to show that they are, which is not always true. Sorry I'm rambing here, I'll just make my point:

I agree with you.

Merry Part,
Galen

From: Dionne Sent: 20/02/2001 21:28 26 of 31

Back to White Crows colour thing for a mo (there's alot of to-ing & fro-ing in here!)..

White witches....if someone tells us they're a white witch....we automatically know what they mean...so if you're comfortable with that....surely there's no reason not to use it (after all...it's not harming anyone)...
I think that kinda drifts back to another message...about calling yourself what you like, so long as you're happy with it & it's not hurting anyone...I think that was a bit of a ramble...but I hope you get my jist...

& metaphors....where would we be without our oils, herbs, crystals & candles? (I do love my candles!)....we use colours in candle magic (well...I do anyway)....& colours are all through the natural world (& the unnatural world!)...where would we be without colour?...

I think everyone relates colours to different aspects of different things...conciously or subconciously...red/pink for love, white for purity (wedding dresses!)...the list goes on & on....& on...

I think I've maybe gone off the subject slightly here...I'm revising...forgive me!

Believing in what you truly believe in...& not what's forced on you is the best idea I reckon...as long as you're harming nothing...be happy..

Does this mean White & me actually almost agree on something?...surely not!!

purpley happiness...

Dionne

From: seabhac Sent: 21/02/2001 09:41 27 of 31
hey all again,
The individuals referred to in Galen and Alan's posts I believe are considered as "fluffy Liberals". But I don't think anyone has yet considered that there may be some folk out there who are very aware of the amount of "evil" or whatever you want to call it in the world, and accept its existence. Does this mean they contribute to it? Or rather are they at a stage where they can accept the nature of things without feeling the need to change it? Many pagans instead of referring back to "good and evil" use Karma as their ethical guideline. Some things are the way they are, and should be accepted as such. There are those who will act in a positive way, and those who will act in a negative way. It has been argued (particularly by some far eastern traditions) that neither should be praised/encouraged/punished, but acknowledged. Buddhists believe that all material sensation is "bad" - Samsara, and strive to be released from its cycle. There are many different types of ethical system but their value hangs on one thing - whether or not the "majority" in society accepts them. Sorry if this is a bit off the mark and rambling...often it's hard to put into words that which one carries in one's head. ;)
Blessings
Seabhac

From: Akasha Sent: 21/02/2001 10:44 28 of 31
ok this may seem a little mad, but i was watching the neverending story the other day and an interesting point is made (well sort of).
does evil actually exist, or is it just a lack of love, tolerance and compassion.
in the neverending story the hero finds that the only way to beat the bad guy, who was making the world empty, (read evil) was to wish she had a heart, thus filling the emptyness with love.
we describe a person as cold hearted, but in science there is no such thing as cold. the phenomenon we call cold is, in reality, a lack of heat energy. so to say someone is cold hearted we are really saying that they lask what makes the heart warm metaphorically, this is love.

From: White Crow Sent: 21/02/2001 18:40 29 of 31
Wow ...

I think maybe Alan is right and we have probably got a bit off track! I notice Scott hasnt even tried to sheppard this discussion ... I bet he's wondered where its got.

At the end of the day though, I think like a lot of people, this can get me riled up. Thats because whatever our beliefs, it is something very important to us, maybe even one of the key foundations of our whole belief ... of course we're all passionate about something like that! And yes, we should question those core beliefs, just to make sure we got them right!

Oh dear, starting to sound like Jerry Springer now!

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry ...

White Crow

From: scott Sent: 21/02/2001 20:27 30 of 31
Hi there all!!!
I've had little bro staying with us and it's been kinda hard getting onto the comp. The discussion about having kids. I now know I definately don't want them. Anyone need a sacrifice?

1. OK my typing is shite! It was an accident in calling this page what I did. It should have been called Grey Magick.

2. Rereading my original statement i see that I wasn't overly clear on the points I was trying to make. First of all: I am a witch who practices magic and use the definitions of White, Grey & Black to catergorise the possible consequences of the spell I might cast. They are labels, that is all, not different forms of magic, or power or craft. Labels. I most definately believe that darkness is Holy. It is in the darkness of a nights sky that 2 lovers join their bodies in love, it is in the darkness of the mothers womb that a child is created. Darkness is loving, healing force. A gift from the Gods. Please do not confuse my labels, for actual forces, they are but merely names, that make it easier in my limited mortal mind to work my craft. There is darkness that I run to, there is light that I flee from (I protect myself from the Sun as it can damage me).

Thank you all for your comments, and once again apologise gor not being able to get back to this message board sooner.

Love you all
Scott xxxxXXXXxxxx

"what the fuck have i started!!!!!!!"

From: Dionne Sent: 21/02/2001 21:14 31 of 31
Me again!

Just thought I'd throw this one in...

My Business studies lecturer came up with a good point today...absolutely nothing to do with paganism...but with reference to the animal care industry...

He said... "There is very little that is black & white, it's mostly grey... we just have to learn to pick information out of this grey...& make our own, informed descisions.."..

Very profound for a business studies lecture!...got me thinking did that...